Curse

Zhou Feng · May 04, 2006, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcador

This /signed stuff is silly.

Monitor of other 8 players will be cool
also ability to chat with them
The ability to allow 1-3 people to join however will affect the whole mechanism. This will need reworking on the monitoring stuff.

So everyone agrees on the monitoring and chat stuff, so it comes actually to the random join thing:
The good sides - you don't need to wait or find a party, you just join in the fray. Also when you are not put in a party you may freelance for good...or for bad.
The bad sides - Many users posted most of those reasons - too much randomness, big lack of coordination, "everyone for himself" style of play and so on.
My prediction:But if you ask me the biggest problem will show itself after a month of play (when the game is fully shipped, finished, alliances formed, people familiar with the new stuff). THEN it will become to absolutelly opposite to what people want it - the chaos and charisma of the FPE 12vs12 will be pierced by top Korean (and not so many non Korean guilds) which will totally dominate the field with their 12vs12 builds and will stand almost no chance by the "fun searching" random joining players. Remember when the korean guilds were using mass war's builds with blackout? Everyone screamed out loud of frustation that they cheated and so on...but actually they were one of the first that showed specialized Tombs (now HA) build that did EXACTLY what it was made to - to kick unorganized pug's butts. Later on other guilds began to made their builds and thus it become more stable. (There are many excemptions, so please do get offended). I fear it will become worse with the 12vs12, when the organized 12 or 8 players team will just wipeout and take control of the map in 5 mins. And it will happen because one of the teams will be by 4+4+4 fully self supported squads that have purposes (like defenders, skirmishers, and act as one whole 12 on the field) and the other side will be made of 12 single or most 2 persons squads (1+1+1+1+1+1+.... or 1+2+1+2+3+1+...)who play for themselves.
So focusing on 4 team forced squads will maybe make it worse for some in the beggining but later, it will be become a way better.

Some players fear that the 4+4+4 will force players to stay only by 4, but I think they will quickly adapt to split by 2's or even 1's if needed (GvG splits are still active and ofter work good). Also when (I know they will) implent the other parties monitoring and with the last update Radar players range indicator it will be pretty easy to see if some other party member is near you (so you can support him if you see he needs a hand) or you don't need to worry for him, (if he is far to away from your party).

Hmm maybe it should be Random 12vs12 and Team 12vs12?
Monitoring of the other Eight players as well as using that new dim effect when player is out of compass range can be useful for more strategy so long AS theres a way to communicate with the other players. I had though Team tab would do just that but the other 8 players count as separate albeit allied teams. So perhaps another tab called Allies or something. Perhaps give at least some time for players to settle down a strategy before the 12 vs 12 breaks out. Such as twenty seconds or less tops to discuss brief strategy.

Team 1: We roxors so well kick arse
Team 2: Cool well distract then
Team 3: We got most of the monies here will heal.

Or some crap like that.

Eviance · May 04, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

I liked how in the old way if we were doing really bad and someone took the reins to either get us a win or a near win - they were cheered in local chat for being the hero and savior of the day and it didn't matter what their guild tag meant or was - cause for all we knew they could have been a log in solo. They didn't brag about where they came from, they just bowed and said sorry I couldn't get us a win, maybe next time! Or yeah that was AWESOME, you guys really pulled it together under pressure!

I saw very little badmouthing during the FPE battles unless it was IN battle!

Now all I see is top guilds in their groups of 4, not willing to listen to other guild or pug groups cause they think they are better - everyone fighting and not even for the same cause! It's all bitching and moaning in local chat in the districts about how "we could have WON if it wasn't for so and so!" and "why the hell do they let newbs in here that don't know what they are doing!"

And for some reason it doesn't dawn on these elitest that most people were expecting the old FPE version and not only that, even if they knew of the changes it's still going to be confusing! It's just sad that the common little guy can't play and have fun (I know many of you would argue against this but go in there with your mesmer and no guildies to back you up and see if you get a group).

Before if we won or lost it was usually looked at as the whole team kinda messed it up - now all the blame is laid on each one of the groups that wasn't your initial four and personally I see that as the stupidest thing ever!

However the 12v12 was in VERY SLIGHT mention by Gaile at her last chat session - lets hope for better news in the future.

The /signed are to the original idea but people are also willing to sign a varition of the original (IF the original is not possible) - but they are NOT willing to sign to the current varriation.

Zhou Feng · May 04, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

So the fun of it was that it was random 12vs12 correct? Sory wasnt here for the FPE my comp is blitzed at the moment.

At any point Team 12vs12 should be done between Actually Allied Guilds so then there wont be any blame after all they chose their allies. And any allied guilds should I suppose have good relations.

Perhaps Random 12vs12 for random fun and chaos and Allied Team 12vs12 for Guilds who are allied and therefore and hopefully have a better relationship to get them through or take the blame

Loch · May 04, 2006, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

The vast majority of Guild Wars players (my assumption being based on opinions by in-game friends/guildies/allies, GWO, TGH, this community, and the Italian community) thinks the FPE 12v12 was fun, while the release 12v12 is not.

Your assumptions are invalid. The forum community is in no way representative of the majority of players. If it was representative of the in-game population, then the game would have died after AoE fear was put into PvE mobs.

derrtyboy69 · May 05, 2006, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

Your assumptions are invalid. The forum community is in no way representative of the majority of players.

Well look at it this way: The amount of people in the 12v12 has dropped ridiculously. Theres 1, mabye 2 districts at most. Sure, there were people testing the game out, but only a few people looking for groups at a time is stupid.

Ill say it again: Theres already 3 forms of group-forming types of pvp, and only 1 fast. Now in Factions its 4 group, and 1 random. The people that like random are pretty damn out of luck, as RA just gets repetitive.

Dark Suoon · May 05, 2006, 02:24 AM // 02:24

/signed

i agree with it all and man i dont see any more luxon much for a odd reason.... in FPE theres was tons more...

Ken Dei · May 05, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

I was thinking earlier, and I'd like to nip a potential arguement in the bud, and the arguement is as follows:

"If you all hate it so much, why are you playing it anyway"

While the answers should be obvious, I'll pretend they aren't.

1.) It is, unfortunately, still the best way to get Faction, therefore PvE chars still play alot because they want to own a town or get Jadite/Amber.

2.) Teams with Vent/TS now have an even better advantage to roll other teams, whether they agree with the changes or not.

3.) It's still a decent testing ground for new builds, especially soloing builds.

None of the above indicate that anyone doing the above activities are having fun...except maybe the Vent/TS guys cause they're winning alot. But who doesn't love to win...oh wait, that's right, nobody.

ulath · May 06, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

/signed

Bring back the FPE 12vs12, this was why i bought factions!

this btw my 1st post here

lightblade · May 06, 2006, 08:19 AM // 08:19

/not signed

The current 4 player group allows more tactics rather than just everybody get into an big army and nuke each other out.

Trance Addict · May 06, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

/not signed

The current 4 player group allows more tactics rather than just everybody get into an big army and nuke each other out.

You want tactics? Go do Tombs, GvG or Team Arena. 12v12 was the only place where I didn't give a shit about anything. It was pure chaos during the FPE and it was what I expected with the official release, I was sadly dissapointed. I always liked Random Arenas for the pure fact that you had no idea who you would team up with and who you would face. 12v12 was just a bigger & funner Random Arenas, now it's 3 Team Arenas teams and there's much less people playing. Compare FPE (when I played about 5 hours of 12v12 a day; literally), to the official Alliance Battles (which I did like 3 runs since release); you'll notice a huge difference.

Eviance · May 06, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

Your assumptions are invalid. The forum community is in no way representative of the majority of players. If it was representative of the in-game population, then the game would have died after AoE fear was put into PvE mobs.

I think you missed the fact that he listed a whole bunch of different groups ALONG SIDE this community. It is at least a portion and everyone's voice counts (even those we don't like to hear sometimes). He didn't just say by this thread alone, he mentioned guildies, alliances, and a lot of others he has spoken to about it.

I myself have seen people complaining ingame about it and not just within my guild. If there were more supporters of it they would be in the 12 v 12 - instead all we see is empty or near empty districts, which tells us one thing - the new 12 v 12 isn't as liked amongst the Guild Wars community as the old FPE which had at least 5districts always - even at 3am!

It is self evident and those that are playing it - I know a lot of them are either doing it to make money from selling Jade/Amber or so that they can get it for the armor themselves.

Ashleigh McMahon · May 06, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

/signed

It was great when we could just walk into Seasalt Beach(sp) and then enter the game, without having to worry on availability.

Ashleigh

Mettoolman · May 06, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

yes thank you I TOTALLY agree.

Bring back the old 12 vs 12

McHearty · May 07, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

/signed

The way it is now is yuckie.

Nightwind Of Dwayna · May 07, 2006, 06:41 AM // 06:41

/signed, and I never, ever sign petitions.

Today, I sat patiently in Pwnzick Headquarters waiting for the Nubxons to get a party together to fight me for 13 minutes. This is broke. And it totally was the most promising thing about this release. I get that build freaks want to crunch numbers and accept only the classes they want and whatnot - there was room in the FPE-style event for them to do that, too. But... OK... I tried to resist, but...

/soapbox

I am not trying to toot my horn, but I'm a super-experienced monk player. Monks are all I play, they're all I care to play, and that's just that. Because I have this somewhat restricted viewpoint on classes, I like to play around with the different types of monk that are available. I liked Alliance Battles because I used to be able to go in as a Smiter, not have anyone cry (try it...people get so resentful that you're a monk who's not there to prevent them from dying that they get absolutely JUVENILE about it...), and be very, very effective in helping the Pwnzick family gain Real Estate. Think Smite Hex, Balth's Aura Damage spread across 6-7 people at once. Think how cool it would be to be a mezmer getting beat into the ground (again) by a thumper or KD/AS and all of a sudden, you have Shield Of Judgement on you, you don't know who helped you like this and you don't have time to think about it, but it helps you live and maybe even win. 12 people is a big team, but I used to feel like I could sneak in under the radar and do enough damage to turn the tide. It was secret-agent-man kind of fun.

Today, by contrast, I had to wait 13 minutes to even get in a match. Then, some idiot saccer necro on my 4 man team calls me out repeatedly in the "All" channel for not keeping him alive. Never mind that keeping him alive is not my job, he shouldn't run a character that literally kills itself, or any of the other 80 reasons that he shouldn't be calling me out like this - my arguement is in the old days he never would have even noticed!! On a 12-man team I am not his "personal monk" and it's not my responsibility to keep him alive. As long as he looks at the scoreboard at the end and his score is higher, he doesn't complain about dying. Now, he thinks my only reason for existing is to be "his monk", and (even though we won the game) I had to publicly defend a build that has won me 300,000+ Faction... I know there are people who have more but that aint bad.

People can win together without being guildies or even friends. You just have to give them a chance. As has been stated several times, just make the other 8 ppl Allies. No more Heal Party spam. No more Aegis spam. Problem solved. Please, ANet - I loooooove your game - Noone is playing this game type - because it's bad. Not because we're all crazy. I promise. Also, how can we solve the Luxons (pop. 53) vs. Kurzicks (pop. 530,000) problem? I don't have suggestions, but "wait it out" doesn't seem to be working.

/soapbox

Zakarr · May 07, 2006, 07:48 AM // 07:48

1. Allow random joining. Both sides must have random players to balance organized teams. Would be silly if there is 8 random players in one side and 3 organized teams in other side.

2. Keep the 3 teams and 4 players format but merge other 2 teams as allies.

3. Leaving will result a time penalty for joining next battle. Yes, it will be unfair against users which drop because of hardware or network failure but that won't happen often plus players who would drop often, no matter what is the reason, are pain in the ass for others anyway. Maybe they finally start checking their hardware and ISP. Waiting for 5-10 minutes will reduce moron quitting but is not a big deal for random droppers.

4. Shared team chat and you could draw to compass with team color which your allies can't see if you hold right mouse button instead left or something so there is private strategy possibilities too.

D Runner · May 07, 2006, 08:05 AM // 08:05

/signed

The FPE 12v12 accommodated both Randoms and Teams. Anet totally gave me a false impression of Factions by changing it. Anet, please let Random people back into 12v12!!!!

hr1100 · May 07, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

I am sorry, I didn’t read every single message, but I got an idea of the discussion by reading the first 3 pages, so excuse me if am making a double post.

Claiming that using skills that effect the whole party (heal party, orders, etc.) is unbalanced and because of that 12vs.12 must be made into 4,4,4vs.4,4,4 is just not correct. This is perfectly OK, because the team on the other side, the enemy, has got the same opportunity as you do, therefore – it is fair.

12vs12 system was never satisfactory to me, even during the FPE 12vs.12. The problem lies in not being able to make your own party of 12 people, which on the other hand makes factions redundant, half useful, not fully realized. But it was fun – get 4 friends, play couple of games… and only that, but nothing more, this does not have anything to inspire you to keep going. I played about 15-20 games and I got just enough of everything alliance battles could offer me. In the current state of Alliance Battles I fell like playing some cheesy arcade shooter, not GW!

I know the difficulties associated with making a team 12 players and I have suspicions that this is the biggest reason arena.net had to make alliance battles what they are today.

But what if you could make such groups as easily as you make your 8 player group for GvG and HA, which is still kind of hard you know? What if you create a faction with trusted and serious guilds who know what and how they are doing? Wouldn’t this be more fun and rewarding than to jump right into battle? Wouldn’t it be more fun to have 11 friends by your side, in your voice comm. channel to whom you can count on and crush (loose to) opposing teams together, rather with complete strangers? Wouldn’t this be more rewarding and enjoyable in the longer term than the dull randomness of a Random Arenas inspired system?

Of course not many can create effective 12 players teams – which makes the *random assigned* feature a must. But then it won’t be much fun your random team to be crushed by strong and organized team of 12 selected players, will it? It won’t, and people will soon realize that, and will feel the urgent need to call for a alliance group in their alliance chat, to organize themselves, to put into meaning the actions of this bunch of people randomly moving from left to right who rely on their psychic abilities to coordinate themselves.

You see – it’s just like with HA, or early Tombs of Primeval Kings. Most teams were made by blind invites and got defeated with ease by the organized ones, then everyone started making organized teams.

bringer di morte · May 07, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

/signed

misthero · May 08, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Is A-NET reading this thread? Please give us any answer Gaile.